Curse

Bryant Again · Sep 24, 2007, 02:10 AM // 02:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kale Ironfist

With heroes being more consistant and better than the average player you'd meet at random, obviously having more of them makes your team stronger than taking in another player.

It's not like heroes can easily become "godmode lol". It takes a decent amount of general knowledge of the game. A newer player won't do well with a full team of heroes. You'd need a broad understanding of the game in order to have successful heroes.

And if you think humans are underpowered, then I say this: PvE Skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

OK WITH THAT?

Why not? Not much of a difference. It's just like being in a selfish PUG.

Vinraith · Sep 24, 2007, 02:30 AM // 02:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

OK WITH THAT?

Absolutely. Why should a single player that's with a bunch of heroes get different loot than a single player that's with a bunch of people?

Vinraith · Sep 24, 2007, 02:33 AM // 02:33

Quote:

With heroes being more consistant and better than the average player you'd meet at random, obviously having more of them makes your team stronger than taking in another player. This in turn leads to a hero limit so that you take at least one other person to fill out your team with heroes.

And by that same logic no more than 4 people from the same guild should be allowed in a group, in the interests of "balance."

Let's see how THAT goes over, shall we?

Kale Ironfist · Sep 24, 2007, 03:17 AM // 03:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

It's not like heroes can easily become "godmode lol". It takes a decent amount of general knowledge of the game. A newer player won't do well with a full team of heroes. You'd need a broad understanding of the game in order to have successful heroes.

And that adds what to your argument of increasing the number of usable heroes per character per team? If they don't know how to use 3 heroes, they sure as hell won't know how to use 7 at once.

Quote:

And if you think humans are underpowered, then I say this: PvE Skills.

PvE skills do not remedy the failing intelligence that destroyed PuGs. They hide it. If henchmen (in Prophecies/Factions/Nightfall with their subpar builds and no runes/insignia/weapon mods) were able to get people through each game, why add more hero slots per player? The difficulty was set for them to have those subpar builds. Besides, ArenaNet has to give incentives for players to buddy up, and that's heroes and PvE skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vinraith

And by that same logic no more than 4 people from the same guild should be allowed in a group, in the interests of "balance."

Let's see how THAT goes over, shall we?

I forgot to add in that the hero limit was for grouping incentives. It's the exact same reason they gave for when they dumbed down henchmen AI between beta (alpha?) and release of Prophecies.

I Phoenix I · Sep 24, 2007, 03:55 AM // 03:55

I think we should have the ability to use 7 heroes.

I mean, we have 25 total, and can only use less than 1/8 of them at a time? Might as well just give us 10 heroes...

Bryant Again · Sep 24, 2007, 04:10 AM // 04:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kale Ironfist

If they don't know how to use 3 heroes, they sure as hell won't know how to use 7 at once.

That's kind of my point. It's not like having more heroes somehow magically makes you better at the game. You still need to know what you're doing, and then some: You not only need to know about *your* build, but the builds of your three heroes. It's up to you to come up with those skill bars, make sure that they compliment each other, and if the hero even uses the skill right. This can usually get pretty tough.

In just any random PUG, you could just worry about your own build, and you were good to go.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kale Ironfist

If henchmen (in Prophecies/Factions/Nightfall with their subpar builds and no runes/insignia/weapon mods) were able to get people through each game, why add more hero slots per player?

Right now, I don't mind. Henchies were fine before, even better now (see below). The reason that I think it would be cool to have 7 hero slots is because it's more personal and just plain fun. It'd be more satisfying completely assembling your own army instead of having to take a premade placeholder.

Like I said I can't complain. Henchies are more than fine to take in those last 4 spots.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kale Ironfist

It's the exact same reason they gave for when they dumbed down henchmen AI between beta (alpha?) and release of Prophecies.

That's pretty much no longer in effect. In GWEN, the henchies have some real kick ass bars, namely Zho and Herta. Why look for someone else to bring additional heroes when the henchmen are insanely useful and versatile?

I also have found people not finding too much incentive in the limit anyways. It's so much easoer to pick up the henchies and gogogo.

Edge Martinez · Sep 24, 2007, 05:02 AM // 05:02

I used to be against 7 heroes, but I have changed my mind. I am all for it. Why? Cause it'd be badass. That's why. It shows character growth within the story. We started in Prophecies as lowly trainees, developed our skills, watched our homes burn, fought back and went on to save the world. Then we heard about some foreigner coming back from the dead, so we went and kicked his butt, and saved the world. Right as we were about to enjoy a cup of tea, some retard unleashes an unspeakable evil on yet another continent, and who do they call? Us. Off to kill a god, make a god, and save the world.

Along the way we, once lowly trainees, have impressed other adventurers who decided to make our journey their own. They are ready at a moment's notice to lend their lives to our cause. But we can only take 3 at a time? WTF??? Is Little Thom like a union rep or something so we HAVE to take one of the henchies?

What if ANet had been in charge of fairy tales?

'And here we have Snow White and the seven dwarves, Sleepy, Grumpy, Doc, Alesia, Stefan, Mehnlo, and Talon Silverwing.'

... WTF!?

Sometimes you just need to change things because it would be badass to do so.

MirageMaster · Sep 24, 2007, 05:04 AM // 05:04

Make a communety event to show anet that we want 7 heros! STRIKE! lol

Mavrik · Sep 24, 2007, 05:11 AM // 05:11

Anet needs to say "YES" to this as far as I'm concerned. I'm a casual player and often don't have time to spend standing around looking for a group to get into and "hope" some of them might be competent enough to make the mission a success. I do missions alone and quests alone unless its with some guild mates.

Having 7 heroes would be perfect for me. I could then decide what skills I want on the team to suit the mission. I'm tired of taking those silly hench that have pretty much worthless skills. I don't need some hero yelling "charge!" every time the skill recharges even though we're not actually moving.

As a casual player, I don't need overwhelming difficulty in a game. Sure others want it, well fine don't use 7 heroes. I could then build the group I want. It would force me to spend money on skills, runes, weapons and other things that would benefit the gold sink.

I also wish heroes would wear the cape of their "owner"

Come on Anet. say yes to this. I'll keep using stupid hench instead of real people... so keeping me from a group of 7 heroes will never make me PUG.

Kale Ironfist · Sep 24, 2007, 05:38 AM // 05:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

That's kind of my point. It's not like having more heroes somehow magically makes you better at the game. You still need to know what you're doing, and then some: You not only need to know about *your* build, but the builds of your three heroes. It's up to you to come up with those skill bars, make sure that they compliment each other, and if the hero even uses the skill right. This can usually get pretty tough.

In just any random PUG, you could just worry about your own build, and you were good to go.

Except this thread wasn't made with the newer player in mind. The OP wants to know why people have their view on which is better to have 3/7 heroes. Obviously, to have any kind of viewpoint that contributes to the thread, you'd have to at least know the basics on controlling and using heroes. Given that, having 7 heroes is going to be much stronger than a PuG, compared to 3 heroes and 4 henchies (which is still stronger, but limited by henchmen choice).

Quote:

Right now, I don't mind. Henchies were fine before, even better now (see below). The reason that I think it would be cool to have 7 hero slots is because it's more personal and just plain fun. It'd be more satisfying completely assembling your own army instead of having to take a premade placeholder.

Like I said I can't complain. Henchies are more than fine to take in those last 4 spots.

I'm of the same position, but it doesn't offer a solution to the stance ArenaNet has taken, which is to provide incentives to grouping up with random players and have fun along the way with your new acquaintances/friends.

Quote:

That's pretty much no longer in effect. In GWEN, the henchies have some real kick ass bars, namely Zho and Herta. Why look for someone else to bring additional heroes when the henchmen are insanely useful and versatile?

I also have found people not finding too much incentive in the limit anyways. It's so much easoer to pick up the henchies and gogogo.

What ArenaNet said before was AI (and the AI back then was terrible). They never said anything about skill bars, though that could have been part of the sweep to pro-grouping/anti-henchmen sentiment at the time. There's been two henchmen AI buffs since then, and the GW:EN skillsets for henchmen (for the most part) are ridiculously good compared to Prophecies/Factions and a step up from Nightfall. What I find lacking is situational awareness. Sometimes, you want to take out two or more targets at once (shutdown one, damage pressure another). Henchmen at the moment cannot do that, since they will follow your actions. This is where the hero system comes into play, allowing you slightly better control. As it is, I've no problem with three hero slots because the henchmen do a fine enough job that I don't really care to have more.

Wrath of m0o · Sep 24, 2007, 10:26 AM // 10:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vinraith

And by that same logic no more than 4 people from the same guild should be allowed in a group, in the interests of "balance."

Let's see how THAT goes over, shall we?

Vinraith..
I <3 you !!
That's awesome

Torqual · Sep 24, 2007, 10:52 AM // 10:52

I very strongly support 7H.

The new henchmen in GW:EN are 'overpowered' by the way. Herta with Sandstorm and Aidan with Barrage... not overpowered?

For me it's the exact same thing.... why give people 25 heroes to let them use 3? It destroys variety when all you're doing is using Olias, Dunkoro and Zhed EVERY time. I'd like to include Rt, Me, even maybe Zenmai (gasp) and this would massively increase variety and role-play value. But in really tough areas it would mean giving up LOD, minions or SF...which is not an option.

Yes, I'd like to be able to do really tough areas with 7H. Like people say above, the main advantage of Heroes is that they DO NOT QUIT and leave you unable to complete the mission.

Just another point.... with heroes you get to make builds based on the skills and elites *YOU* have unlocked/capped. This is a good way to reward people with multiple classes, skill hunters, or to transfer a benefit from PvP to PvE.

Isileth · Sep 24, 2007, 11:10 AM // 11:10

Can I ask a question of those saying it would be overpowered?

Can you explain why it would be overpowered? What can the heroes do that a player cant?

BlackSephir · Sep 24, 2007, 11:14 AM // 11:14

By 'overpowered' they probably mean 'they can use 8 pve only skills'.
Oh wait, they can't! They can't even use 1 good pve skill FFS.

Just because Koss is better GW player than your average wammo doesn't mean he's overpowered.

the_jos · Sep 24, 2007, 11:19 AM // 11:19

I do understand that people would like to run 7 heroes.

Arguments like 'overpowered' and 'unbalanced' are partly true.
I know a seasoned 8-human group would easily beat the 1+7 group.
However, I don't think people that have the posibility to form a seasoned 8-human group are the ones asking for 7 heroes.

Hero AI is good at one thing: timing.
Both interrupting and certain spike build (pre-nerf GvG Discord team for example).
While it's very possible to do the same (and better) with full human teams, it's a very powerfull tool, specially considering that the player him/herself does not need a lot of skill to play such builds.

Now, with two human players and 4 heroes people would have about the same result as with 7 heroes.
So there is no reason there to deny a 7 hero team.

However, do we really need 7 heroes?
The main pro-hero arguments are the following I think:
- Hench AI is broken
While they are not as good as heroes, it was possible to hench prophecies and factions. Same for H&H nightfall and EotN.
- Certain areas/quests are difficult/impossible with hench
This is true, but only limited to a few specific areas (FoW/UW access from ToA Normal Mode comes in mind) and quests.
- People want to play solo and not wait to team up with someone else
Well, don't buy a MMORPG/CORPG!

So while 7 heroes would be nice, there is absolutely no need.

If you want game improvement, stop asking for ideas that would turn the game in a single player game (even more than it is now) and start asking for things that would improve teaming up with other people.
I know A-net implemented the party search, however, there is a lot more that can be done here.
I'm mainly thinking about scheduling and a posibility to watch/place party requests in a certain outpost while not being there yourself.

odly · Sep 24, 2007, 11:20 AM // 11:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackSephir

By 'overpowered' they probably mean 'they can use 8 pve only skills'.
Oh wait, they can't! They can't even use 1 good pve skill FFS.

They really should be allowed to use PvE skills though. After all, I buy those SS skills from a hero skill trainer npc, don't I ?

Torqual · Sep 24, 2007, 11:25 AM // 11:25

For people that complain about 7H....no-one is suggesting that we force you to use it.

It would just be nice if the people that wanted to use 7 heroes would be able to. If people don't like the idea, they don't have to use it. But saying that this should be denied to others is just wrong.

It's only the people that are using 3H+4hench anyway.

Again, why give us 25 heroes to use 3? Also, it damages RP value. Cut scenes with Heroes involved when they are not in party? Not a good thing...

Retribution X · Sep 24, 2007, 11:28 AM // 11:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kale Ironfist

Besides, ArenaNet has to give incentives for players to buddy up, and that's heroes and PvE skills.

What about mesmers? what about Assassins? what about those classes that humans won't take?

I'm sorry, but trying to get in a group because the henchies can't do it is like bungie jumping with a normal rope, you're better off not trying.

I play an assassin. The average PuG has an IQ less than my cat, and they also don't take assassins, because they don't know how they work...

so I turn to my faithful heros, and the not-so-faithful henchies. The henchies aggro a group, and die, because I can't set their status...

Of course, Heros will never be better than when I use my guild, but I can't call my guild every 20 minutes when I can't find a group.

Isileth · Sep 24, 2007, 11:35 AM // 11:35

While the AI is good at things like interrupting in terms of reaction time, they dont choose the best skills to interrupt. A hero will be happy to interrupt flare and then sit there while MS is cast.

A player even a fairly poor player has an advantage over the AI simply because they can think. They can look at whats happening and make an informed choice on what to do. Its the same for all AI actions. While they may be quicker to react to something it doesnt mean they are going to react well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

- People want to play solo and not wait to team up with someone else
Well, don't buy a MMORPG/CORPG!

As many people has said previousely there are many reasons players cant/dont get a team of players.

Be it a case of time.
Looking after kids and so having to go afk for long periods of time.
Just so you can take a break whenever.
So they arent forced into playing a set way. Be that build or tactics.

So anyone that cant guarantee they can play for x hours at a time shouldnt buy a MMORPG?

I can assure you that the casual player outnumbers the hardcore player. So to suggest that is to suggest GW should loose a good portion of its playerbase.

And again for those that dont want it, it wouldnt effect you. Those that enjoy playing with real players will continue playing with real players.
All this would do is allow more people to enjoy the game in the way they want.

BlackSephir · Sep 24, 2007, 11:59 AM // 11:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by odly

They really should be allowed to use PvE skills though. After all, I buy those SS skills from a hero skill trainer npc, don't I ?

It's one thing on a looong list what should be done.